Elizabeth Willing Powel

A woman in Philadelphia tells George Washington, plainly, that the country needs him to serve again and she does not write for personal gain. That single moment opens a much bigger story about how influence works when you cannot vote, cannot hold office, and still refuse to stay silent. 

We sit down with Samantha Snyder from the George Washington Presidential Library at Mount Vernon to talk about Elizabeth Willing Powel, the subject of Samantha’s forthcoming full-scale biography (University of Virginia Press, March 2027). Powel is not a formal political leader, but she is deeply connected to the people who are. Through letters, conversation, and a keen “talent for suggesting,” she helps shape the founding era from a different stage: salons, homes, and relationships that quietly steer big decisions. 

We also dig into the sources that make Powel come alive. Beyond correspondence with George and Martha Washington, Samantha finds meaning in ledgers, receipts, and account books that show Powel managing wealth, property, investments, and civic improvement projects after becoming a widow. Those details expand our understanding of early American civic life, women’s political influence, and the networks surrounding the founders. 

If you’ve ever felt like you need a title, a platform, or “top billing” to matter, Powel’s life argues the opposite. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves history, and leave a review with one overlooked historical figure you think we should talk about next.

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome back to Civics in a year. I am so excited. I almost feel like you're our like resident librarian at this point. So I'd like to welcome back Samantha Snyder from the George Washington Presidential Library. I'm on Vernon. So last time Samantha and I talked about Washington's farewell address, and she mentioned somebody in that podcast named Elizabeth Powell. And I emailed her and was like, we need to do an episode on this because Samantha, you have a book coming out about Elizabeth Powell. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

SPEAKER_01 0:42

Sure. So the book right now, I've not gotten any pushback so of a title, but the title

Book Announcement And Who She Was

SPEAKER_01 0:48

is A Remarkable Woman, Elizabeth Willing Powell, and the founding of the American Republic. So it will be out next year, March of 2027 with the University of Virginia Press. So it's the first full-scale biography of her. So like cradle to grave. She lived to be almost 88 years old. So there's a lot of ground to cover in it. But I am so excited to have it out there. It's been a long journey of working on this. So labor of love, if you will. Labor of love in the best of ways.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

So we want to talk a little bit about her today. And then listeners, if you are like, I want to know more, there is a whole book coming out. I'm excited for that. So let's get started because I'm like, I could just sit and talk and talk about Elizabeth Powell Day. So when we talked about her last time, Elizabeth Powell, she's not a former or formal, excuse me, political leader, but she's so deeply connected to many of the major figures of the founding era. What can her life teach us about political influence of women and how they had that in early America? Because they couldn't vote, right? Like they didn't have the political capital that women have now. So how did she

Women Influence Through Salons And Letters

SPEAKER_00 2:05

influence politics?

SPEAKER_01 2:07

So that's a really great question. So she has a cool thing that she says in a letter about having a talent for suggesting. And so she used she she did not she had her influence, even though she was not in the room in the state house or independence hall. She was able to kind of maneuver and manipulate conversations as needed and kind of insert her own opinions through that under the guise of more relaxed sort of gathering at her house, is what she often would do. So, but in that period, it was still known that these gatherings weren't just like a happy, fun, happy hour. Like they still were very much important and they were important places for women to be able to express their opinions and sort of work not so much behind the scenes, but on a different type of stage. So not the main stage of you know independence hall, but an important stage nonetheless.

SPEAKER_00 3:11

So through her letters and her conversations, she seemed to be incredibly politically aware and also outspoken. Yeah. How unusual was that for women of her time? And why do those writings still matter for us today?

SPEAKER_01 3:27

So it was not unusual necessarily. I think she seems unusual because so few letters of these women survive. But you kind of see a lot of this in England. You see a lot of like the patronesses of these places, these ladies, these peerage ladies are very like their advisors to these different lords and different things like that. But like, but as far as in America, it was not, it was not abnormal. Like you think about Abigail Adams. She has a lot of letters that survived, thank goodness. But her and Elizabeth Powell were not the only women. There were other women in Philadelphia, there were women in Boston and New York, all of these cities where these women were, you know, brought up, these elite women, it was often elite women, were brought up, you know, to be intelligent, be well read, that sort of thing. It wasn't, yeah. So it wasn't uncommon. I get sorry.

SPEAKER_00 4:27

I love that though, because I I mean that's a misconception. And that is genuinely a misconception that I had until I asked it. So I love that I was wrong right there. I really appreciate that I was.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

And and I mean, you know, like they weren't, there weren't like tons and tons and tons of women, but like Elizabeth Powell's just one of the best examples, which is great. And and the fact that her letters survive are thanks to her. She saved, well, her and her descendants. She saved her a lot of, not all of her letters to Washington and then to Martha Washington. She made copies as though she knew what was coming, like 200 years from now. So the letters that still survive, there are some that she did not, at least not surviving copies that she made to the Washingtons, but there are some that there's both, where she made a copy, and then the received copy is like at the Library of Congress normally. But so she was she was preserving that legacy in the moment.

SPEAKER_00 5:29

I love that. So I think that I so my misconception comes from, you know, when we study the founding, we often study the men, right? The people who signed the Declaration of Independence, who attended the Constitutional Convention, and our focus again is on presidents and statesmen. So how does adding figures like Elizabeth Powell change or deepen our understanding of early American civic life?

SPEAKER_01 5:58

Well, I think it kind of expands the story, it expands the narrative. Like these men, these statesmen, these presidents, all of this, they were still there and they were still incredibly important. But there was a whole cast of people around them. They

Why Her Papers Change The Narrative

SPEAKER_01 6:12

didn't exist in a vacuum. And then you have people like Elizabeth Powell, who she's she's unique in her own right as far as fitting amongst these statesmen, because she wasn't the wife of like an A-level politician. Like her husband was mayor and then he was a state senator, but she sort of floated kind of on her own. So it tells you that there were women who were of the same rank as some of these more formal, like famous figures. But I do think having understanding the stories of these people show that the founders were not living in a vacuum. So and without them, they would there would be no founding. So without the more than just the founders, there would be no founding.

SPEAKER_00 6:54

So when you're doing your research for this book and on Elizabeth Howell, because I'm sure you just like I mean, I'm sure she's endlessly fascinating. What are some stories that you ran across or some primary sources that you ran across that you were like, this is really cool? Or wow, I never thought this about her.

SPEAKER_01 7:17

That's a really interesting question. She she, because she lives so long, there's so much of hers that survives. There's a lot that doesn't, but there is a lot that does. I think, you know, all of her financial records really fascinate me. And I know that sort of veers off from politics, and but she was so she became a widow at 50 and she lived to be 87. So she was married for 24 years and lived like another

Widowhood Wealth And Meticulous Records

SPEAKER_01 7:48

40. But her husband, she and her husband had no surviving children. They all died. Either one lived to be a year old, the next two were stillborn, and then one lived to be two weeks old. So very, very quickly. So the two of them really became quite a political power couple. And because of that, he ended up leaving her, they were quite wealthy. He ended up leaving her his entire estate. Like they were clearly quite a pair. And so she was left the like an unknown, clearly very, very large sum of money. But instead of, you know, getting remarried or having a, you know, family member take care of the different like stocks and bonds and different things like that and rental properties, they were very much like wealthy from land and different things like that. She took care of this stuff and she was managing all of these properties, trading stocks, trading bonds, getting really involved in like city improvement projects. Um, so bridges, highways, different things like that. Also the arts and science, all these things that I just would never have expected necessarily, because what I first learned about her was just, you know, her involvement in politics and George Washington. But she leaves these incredible account books and receipts and different things like that, where she is so particular about what she is recording as to what she pays. It's all this sort of legacy building for her. And she gives a lot of gifts to family members, different things like that. So very focused on legacy. And and I just I didn't expect that. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 9:22

That's so cool, though. Like I would never think of financial records. Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 9:28

They really do, sometimes more so than letters, because financial records are less. I mean, she was, you know, keeping these records for a purpose, but they're less performative than letters sometimes. Like you really can dig down into the person when you see, you know, the fabric they're purchasing, the different places they're donating, which I mean, you know, is a performance in and of itself. But these are meant more for that person than whoever is going to be reading that letter. Because letters, a lot of times, people knew were going to be preserved or, you know, meant to be for prescriptive, that sort of stuff. But financial records, there's just something really special. So, and so thank goodness for her and her 40, 40 years of intense record keeping. So, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:14

So, when we think about Elizabeth Powell and George Washington and that relationship, and you mentioned Martha as well, that relationship that existed. How did she influence or how did her friendship with the Washingtons kind of influence things at that time?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

So I think her relationship with the Washingtons, and I wrote a chapter in an edited volume where I talk about this a little bit. The the Powell's relationship with the Washingtons in Philadelphia reminds me a lot of the Fairfaxes with the Washingtons earlier in their marriage. So George and William, George William and Sally Fairfax sort of were George and Martha's cultural guides through Tidewater, Virginia elite society, both before George Washington married Martha and after. And I think the Powells were very similar to that in Philadelphia at first. They sort of offered this entrance into society. Elizabeth

Friendship With George And Martha Washington

SPEAKER_01 11:10

was very culturally savvy. Samuel Powell was too. He had been on a grand tour of Europe, so he'd traveled all over. And so they were very, very cultural, like culturally in tune, but also politically in tune. And I think with Elizabeth Powell, she seemed to somehow bridge a gap with Washington to really meet him on an intellectual level, if not really supersede him on an intellectual level. But I think her influence both culturally and then as she became closer, her ideas about politics like helped. So in Martha, her and Martha, it was more so like a cultural but kind of a domestic bond in a way. They both had lost children. They both really, their letters revolve a lot around the grandchildren and their mutual affinity for Washington. So that seems, yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:04

He's a cool guy. He's a cool guy.

SPEAKER_01 12:08

So yeah, but that that's what they remind me of. Like, and that's their influence.

SPEAKER_00 12:14

It's interesting because learning about Washington, you know, I've I've read a lot of books. I've visited Mount Vernon tons of times. I got to do a summer institute at Mount Vernon. And I think one of the things that always struck me about him is he seemed to be very maybe I don't know if this is the right word, but humble when it came to how educated he was. And he knew that there were people around him that were smarter than him. And he invited that in. Yes. Yes. And I agree. So it sounds like that's what he did with Elizabeth is invited that in because he he knew that that was something that he, you know, may or may not be lacking because he didn't have a formal education. That's not, you know, what how he grew up. And so that invitation in seems to be a very wash and Washingtonian thing.

SPEAKER_01 13:06

Absolutely. I think that's absolutely it. I think she she became one of those nodes in that network for him. And it just happened to be that she was a woman. Like I think being a woman offered a little bit more of like he was able to let his guard down a little bit more with her because she wasn't, it wasn't for personal gain necessarily, their friendship and her advice to him and things like that. Like she wasn't trying to get ahead and get a new job or something like that. And even really Samuel Powell, there's not any examples of her or him sort of like fishing for him to have a position in Washington's, you know, administration, anything like that. So there's they just definitely had a really interesting bond. But I think, yeah, she was one of those, one of those people. But yeah.

SPEAKER_00 13:56

Did she have a formal education?

SPEAKER_01 13:58

You know, she did, most likely. I'm not for certain, but she could read and write in French. She, you know, was incredibly well read, always, you know, quoting different authors and things like that. I think, you know, she she clearly had the education of like a young elite white woman. Her father was one of the trustees of the what is now known as the University of Pennsylvania, but it was the college and academy of Philadelphia then. So they all seemed very focused. He and his wife seemed very focused on educating both their sons and daughters. She was six of ten. So she didn't get like a finishing education in England or anything like that. But yeah. So yeah. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 14:43

So when we look back at Elizabeth Powell and her influence on early American founding, what's something you want our listeners to take away from her life?

SPEAKER_01 14:55

That's a good question. Um It's okay not to be the not to be necessarily the shining star. Like you can still make a difference even if you are not like top billing, like things like that. Like you can make an incredible difference no matter what position you're in. Just try and, you know, express your opinions

Influence Without Office Then And Now

SPEAKER_01 15:24

to the best of your abilities, make new friends, like create new connections, and like be confident, but also know that you might not be like the top of the top. Like, and she seemed okay with that. Like she still made quite a difference, even with just her, you know, humble talent for suggesting she said.

SPEAKER_00 15:43

So I don't know if that's good advice, but but I think it is though, because I think that sometimes when we look at government and history, you know, we have all of these big names, but there are so many people behind the scenes who are happy to be behind the scenes and who are happy to have that. And you don't have to be an elected person, you don't have to be somebody, like you said, this top billing to make a difference. Sometimes it's the little things that make the biggest difference. And as citizens now, you know, I think maybe this would be equivalent to like having a large following on social media. You don't have to have that in order to make a difference. It could be something, I'm sure for Elizabeth Powell, like it was small because it was her relationship with the, you know, their relationship with the Washington. She's probably not thinking about, oh, someday like people are going to be talking about George Washington and maybe they'll be talking about me too. It was for her kind of a local thing almost.

SPEAKER_01 16:43

Yeah. She, you know, she in in the letter to Washington that I think I talked about in the last, in the last podcast, she writes about how when she's saying like you need to basically like get over all this nonsense of like you're being humble. Yes, there are other people, but right now at this moment, it's you that has to serve a second term. She says she's doing it for the good, not the good of their common country. It's very similar. Like she's saying this letter is not specifically like for her own personal gain, but for the gain of the country. So it's like she knew her one voice could make a difference, even if it was just the voice of a friend, that sort of thing, but a very intelligent friend. So, but yeah, like I think Elizabeth Powell would be someone now who would be encouraging people to vote, encouraging people to learn about who the various people are that they're voting for, all that sort of stuff. Like, yeah, but you don't have to be, you don't have to have a gazillion followers on social media. So yeah.

SPEAKER_00 17:41

Okay, and my last question, and this might be a hard one too. What drew you to Elizabeth Powell? Like writing a book is a is a really it's really in-depth, and there's so much to it. So, what is it about her that you were like, I have to write about Elizabeth Powell?

SPEAKER_01 17:59

I mean, you know, it's so funny because it's it it all started because of that letter that we have at the library. And and it's thanks to our president and CEO, we had this box called the Sundries box, where we had documents that our now president and CEO, then library director, really like to talk about on tours. And so we would use it sort of on our own too for giving tours of the library. One of the letters is the letter from Elizabeth Powell to Washington about him needing to serve a second term. And the letter was written. This is like my anecdote at this point, but it's true. The letter was written on my mom's birthday.

The Letter That Sparked A Biography

SPEAKER_01 18:36

And so that was the first thing I kind of noticed. I was like, oh, that's cool. That was written on my mom's birthday. And then I was like, wait, what is this letter? And then probably a month into working at Mount Vernon, I just became hooked because she just there was just something about her. And at first, the whole story of how could a woman be writing to Washington, like, number one, I didn't know he didn't want to serve a second term as president. Number two, I didn't realize it was a woman who was like final at the bitter end, being like, suck it up. And and just the kind of power that she had. Then I realized we had more letters of hers. And so I started transcribing them and just there was just something that drew me to her, that sort of power that someone could have back then. Someone who wasn't like, I mean, I've always found Abigail Adams fascinating, but it was fun to learn about someone new. Like I was like, oh wait, there's more than just Abigail Adams, there's Elizabeth Powell. And then I learned there were plenty, there were many other women along the way too.

SPEAKER_00 19:40

But yeah, so that is so yeah, just I don't know. It's it's fun. And I I wanted to ask you the question because you I I think you have a really cool job as a research librarian. And I, you know, when when people listen to this podcast, especially students, I want them to know there are so many jobs out there in the civic space, because again, I think people think civics and they think why needs to be elected to something and do something, but there's so many cool jobs. So if you like going on deep dives, like definitely that's a great job for you.

SPEAKER_01 20:18

And you just kind of never know what's gonna come your way. Like that's something I mean, I had been at Mount Vernon literally for a month when I thought I kind of want to learn more about her. And then by like July or August, I was very naively like, this won't take me all that many years to just quote unquote write a book. Just kidding, but just kidding. But but you know, I I you can be so many different things within one job, which is really special. So, but then yeah, but deep diving, if you're a if you're a track down every little mystery like I am, become a librarian slash choose someone who's gonna be your subject for years. So, but yeah, and keeping a librarian and keep you interested. And and yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 21:04

So Samantha, thank you so much for taking us on this journey, Elizabeth

Librarian Deep Dives And Closing

SPEAKER_00 21:10

Powell. And I'm very excited for March 2027. Me too. Because again, I think it is, it's finding these different stories of these different people who I'm sure there's somebody listening that's like, I'd never heard of Elizabeth Powell before this, or maybe they listened to our Washington's farewell address episode and they were like, that name sounds interesting. I wonder, I wonder, right? Just asking the questions and having that curiosity is so cool. So, Samha, again, thank you so much again for being our pod. You are officially our podcast resident librarian. You're very welcome. Thanks for just again geeking out with me and being excited about this kind of stuff because this is what makes civics and history so fun. I agree, I agree.

SPEAKER_01 21:56

And it's uh always a pleasure being here. I hope we get to do more podcasting. together. So yay!