Dolly Madison’s Hidden Power

Dolly Madison is famous for saving a portrait, but that’s the smallest part of her story. We sit down with Dr. Lindsay Cormack, political scientist and Director of the Diplomacy Lab at Stevens Institute of Technology, to look at Dolly as a builder of American civic culture and one of the most influential figures of the early republic. She didn’t hold office, she didn’t sign founding documents, and she still helped make the United States feel real, legitimate, and durable through the power of relationships, symbols, and public rituals.

We dig into how Dolly effectively defines what we now think of as the First Lady’s role, from hosting to shaping norms in Washington, DC. Her Wednesday night “crushes” weren’t just parties, they were political infrastructure: a space where supporters and opponents could talk, trade information, and become human to each other outside the pressure of legislative combat. We also explore why that “soft power” is no less real than votes and bills, even if it’s harder to measure.

Then we pull the thread into the present. Dr. Cormac calls it civic care: convening people, building bridges, keeping community going after elections, and doing the unglamorous work that sustains democracy between news cycles. If you’ve ever felt powerless because you’re not running for office, Dolly Madison offers a different model of civic engagement that still works. Subscribe, share this with a friend who loves history and politics, and leave a review. What’s one act of civic care you think our communities need right now?

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Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:02

Welcome back to Civics in the year. Today I am joined, and I'm very excited, by Dr. Lindsay Cormac, Associate Professor of Political Science and the Director of the Diplomacy Lab at Stevens Institute of Technology. Professor Cormack's work focuses on political communication, civic engagement, Congress, and democratic participation. She is the author of How to Raise a Citizen and Why It's Up to You to Do It, and Congress and the U.S. Veterans from the GI Bill to the VA Crisis. Her scholarship and commentary have often appeared in major academic journals and outlets, including the New York Times, Washington Post, 538, and NBC News. Today we're going to talk about Dolly Madison, one of

Welcome And Guest Background

SPEAKER_00 0:49

the most influential and fascinating figures of the early American Republic. So while many people remember her for saving Gilbert Stewart's portrait of George Washington during the War of 1812, Dolly Madison really helped shape the public role of the First Lady and influenced the political culture of a young and deeply divided nation. Lindsay, before I say thank you for joining, I do also want to say for listeners, Lindsay had last year sent me an email. I had published a piece in real clear politics. I'm still relatively new at doing that. And I got an email from, like Lindsay said in the email, the other side of the internet, just thanking me. And Lindsay, I think when we talk about academia and history, you know, people think like, oh, academics, like they're so smart, they're so wonderful, which you are. I just wanted to throw that out there because I think that civic education is such a cool thing. Academia sometimes can be really lonely. And that email was just, again, unsolicited, incredibly amazing. So I am genuinely so honored to have you on our podcast today.

SPEAKER_01 2:07

Oh, I'm so glad that it made your day. I mean, anytime I see people doing work that I think is commendable, I know we oftentimes go through doing so many thankless jobs, whether that's like serving on PTAs or board associations or whatever. I'm like, if I can find a point to say thanks, I will.

SPEAKER_00 2:23

And it was it genuinely just like, yeah, made my day. So Dolly Madison. For people who only know Dolly for this like famous portrait story, right? What should they really understand about her broader political and cultural influence on early America?

SPEAKER_01 2:44

So I think Dolly Madison can be a touchstone for girls who are kind of, you know, sick or maybe annoyed with always hearing the founders are these men. Because I really think all the women who were living at that time were also founders in just as robust a way. So for instance, Dolly Madison is the first person that we call the first lady, despite the fact that she's not the first wife of a president. But part of that is because she shows us politics is not just stuff that happens in a legislative chamber or in a courtroom or in a president's office. It's all that

Dolly Madison Beyond The Portrait

SPEAKER_01 3:15

other softer social things, how we like get ideas to each other, how we talk about patronage, how we link people to people in ways that break down sort of like this my party says this, my party says that. And so I think she's a model of all the sort of political behavior that truly is a part of the founding of the United States that oftentimes just isn't talked about because she wasn't in an elected position.

SPEAKER_00 3:39

So Dolly had no formal political power, yet she became one of the most important public figures in Washington. How did she build that influence and shape politics behind the scenes?

SPEAKER_01 3:53

So, in some ways, her route to being such like a political nexus is by seeing what our republic needed at the time. So if we go back to that time period, there's this notion that men were good politicians if they were sort of like loners or they couldn't be bought by others or corrupted by sort of friendship. And women didn't have that sort of constraint. Women had to do that social work. And so they're calling on each other, they're coming to each other's houses. And the way that I like to think about Dolly, or something I love about talking about her as a political figure, is women are formally excluded from most political power. But she says, you know what, if we're going to build a civic culture, we're going to have to do something around the symbols that we use, the rituals that we have, the rooms that we're gathering people in. And so her power is not just by seeing she has to do it. Every Wednesday night she holds a party,

Social Power In A New Republic

SPEAKER_01 4:40

like what we would now call like a soiree, but they were called crushes or squeezes. And this is where people from supporters to opponents can all get together and there's games that they're playing and they're chatting, but it's just a freer way to sort of share information than the confines of like here's what happens in the legislative halls of power. So I think she does a lot of that stuff, not just about, you know, the institutions of the American founding, but all these other pieces that shore up what we are as a country culturally.

SPEAKER_00 5:08

And it's so cool to think about her because what I know from my studies on James Madison is that he was very quiet, he was very reserved, you know, not somebody who today we would call an extrovert, but Dolly really was. How did that kind of, you know, that marriage really help out Madison during his presidency to have a wife who was so extroverted, you know, who loved to kind of be this influence in Washington?

SPEAKER_01 5:39

Well, by all the accounts I've read, people credit her for his second electoral victory. Because after sort of coming to Washington and showing everyone what this power is gonna be, he does have struggles politically. And she sort of makes it so that like we can get through these by smoothing or greasing the wheels with political opposition. And I do think what you're pointing out is this balance, this like yin and yang of a good political partnership. Cause even when he goes to call on her uh when they're starting their courtship, she says, like, ooh, I'm gonna go get to see the great little Madison. And people would say of him that he's like this withered little Johnny Apple, and she's this like beautiful, buxom dame. And so they do sort of have these like different features that allow them to move through crowds in ways where she's going to be getting most of the attention. And she feels comfortable with that and she's fine

The Wednesday Night Crushes

SPEAKER_01 6:25

talking. And he was a quieter, more intellectual man. So there is this like little balance of their personalities that seems to really help us at the beginning.

SPEAKER_00 6:34

I love that. So your work focuses on civic culture and political communication. What does Dolly Madison's approach to relationship building and public leadership teach us about democracy today?

SPEAKER_01 6:49

Oh, this is a great question. Because the way that we sort of have been taught this lesson is sort of by everyone relearning it on their own instead of pointing to like the Dolly Madison playbook. But I think what we know about sort of politics is what we can measure is usually like who voted or who put this bill out or who co-sponsored it. But all the other things that we can't see is where a lot of our politics happens. So that's like having vacations together, doing baseball games together, having people over for dinner. And that sort of softer versions of power or less seen versions of power are no less real. They're just harder to measure. And so we learn them when you're interacting on a PTA or if you're going to a city council meeting. You realize, like, ooh, there's all these sets of relationships that happen behind the scenes that really can affect outcomes. They make people nicer to each other sometimes. They allow people to have shorthand to say, like, ooh, I trust this person in one place. I don't know a lot about this other issue. I should probably trust them on that too. So it's all the sort of relationship-building stuff that really does change our formal politics in ways that are harder to see, harder to measure, but no less real.

SPEAKER_00 7:55

So, why do you think Dolly Madison then still resonates in American memory more than really any other early political figure, including some who actually held office?

SPEAKER_01 8:07

Well, you know, I'm glad that you think she does. I don't, I don't actually think she gets her due. I if I had my druthers, there'd be like an HBO series that was, you know, all of the Dolly Madison powers. That's what I would work for. But I think, you know,

The Madison Partnership In Public

SPEAKER_01 8:20

we can point to her in the way that she allows power to be used, that's both brilliant, but also within the confines of her time. So it's not as if she said, like, I want to be in power. She said, okay, here's the structures of my day. Here's where I can push on the margins, here's where I can sort of consolidate power. And so I kind of consider her one of like a lower F founder, one of these like people who's still, you know, sure, she doesn't sign the documents. Yes, she doesn't draft them, but she did help make the country feel real and legitimate and durable and enduring. And so that might be why people remember her more today. She also is showy. She she's she grows up as a Puritan, and it takes her about 25 years. It's the second marriage that she has to James Madison, before some of her friends come and say, like, you know, probably gonna have to get rid of these frocks if we want to get a little bit more of attention. And she does, and she changes the way she dresses and she wears these, you know, big turbans, and it's sort of like people are like, Does she think she's the queen of America? And the answer is no, but she does realize that we're gonna have some sort of like regal look if we're gonna command some sort of attention or respect. And I think she weaves it in a very nice American way.

SPEAKER_00 9:30

So she is, like you said, the first first lady, even though we have Martha Washington, you know, Dolly is the first one named that. How did what she did during her husband's presidency affect the kind of office of the first lady? Because we know there's no, there's no guidebook in the constitution about what the first lady is supposed to do. So how did she kind of help shape that for future first ladies?

SPEAKER_01 9:58

Well, I it's it's you know, it's something that you said, it's not laid down that says here's what everyone has to do, but she does have this role of hostess and she does sort of make it her own thing to say, I'm going to have these parties, because this wasn't James Madison's crush or squeeze. This is sort of Madison's gathering of people. And so by sort of asserting a role, I think she gives us this like story about what civic courage sort of looks like, which is like, yes, I don't have someone who said I can or can't do this, but I can carry out something that makes us better in a way that no one has necessarily has to give me approval for. And I think that's like pretty courageous

The Dolly Playbook For Democracy

SPEAKER_01 10:33

of her time, but it also is within the bounds. She's not like offensive to the sensibilities. And so it it works. It's like pushing the edge, but not too much.

SPEAKER_00 10:44

And I love them to think about the first lady as more of this civic role because oftentimes when we think about civics and we think about participation, we think about voting and holding office. But there are so many ways to be a citizen and to involve yourself in civics. And Dolly seems to me to be a really great example of how that can work. And I'm sure that there are people that are like, well, she just threw parties, that's not that big of a deal, but but it really is. And so it feels to me like Dolly helped define what civic engagement could look like in a broader sense.

SPEAKER_01 11:28

I think that's absolutely true. And I think that that's something that we need to continue to tell younger people, people of all ages, is it's not just voting, it's not just running for office. For instance, Dolly Madison, she's a convener. If you bring people in the same room, you make conversation possible. Convening is civic power. She's also a bridge builder where she sort of says, like, okay, there's people with different views. Let's invite them all. Maybe they can have a relationship after getting to know each other in a social function. Yes. She is a memory keeper where she sort of has this institutional knowledge of people who are coming and then not coming and what they're saying and who they're talking to and who needs patronage positions. She's also sort of like a civic educator in that world where she's like allowing this information flow that's outside of the prescripted sort of like halls of power. But that's like, in some ways, institutional caretaking. It's sort of

Civic Care And Bridge Building

SPEAKER_01 12:14

like this like, you know, you have to like care for things when they're not just in work, you have to care for them when they're out of work. And that's sort of how I see this happening for her. But she's also like a public witness to the time to say, like, you know, here's what's happening. Here's the people who are voting for this. All these sorts of things are like what we think of as organizing today. And oftentimes that's like not given the same count as like, well, you're not getting a candidate elected, or well, you're not going to vote. But all that stuff is civic care. It's not just on election day. It's it's all these other times that we have to do these things. And hosting is certainly a way to build a civic space.

SPEAKER_00 12:48

I love that term, civic care. Well, and you know, coming from Arizona, I always think about Justice O'Connor when she was in our state legislature. Yes, she was in an elected office, but she understood that gathering people, you know, in her home and feeding them and having those conversations over a meal was something that was incredibly important because it's hard to look at somebody over Mexican food and not see them as a person. And so this I love the term civic care. Like that is, I've never heard that until today. But what a powerful thing to do. So I'm not sure. I'll give you an example of civic care.

SPEAKER_01 13:34

I'll give you something that I think about. So in New York City over the last few years, we've had like a number of contentious elections. And something that I have started to do is this post-election potluck because I run in civic circles, I run in political circles. A lot of us, you know, either have a candidate who wins, or most of us have candidates who lose. If there's, you know, if you're just playing the whole spectrum of politics. And so the day after the election, which is a Wednesday always here, I'll host a potluck where I say, like, you won, you lost, whatever, bring a dish and let's share. Because we all have to like go into this next phase of this is the new person who's gonna be the mayor or the city council person or whatever. And I think that those are forms of civic care where it's like we show that this game doesn't end on like, oh, election is over.

Potlucks After Elections

SPEAKER_01 14:17

It's like, okay, and now all of us who are outside of the formal halls of power still have to inhabit this space. Why don't we talk about how we're gonna do that? And it's not, you know, I want you to vote for my candidate. That's over. That's done. We're just continuing.

SPEAKER_00 14:31

Well, and I love that it is very much a we're all on the same team here. Like, as opposed to, I think sometimes, especially with younger people, because they're the social media that they consume, it tends to divide of like one or the other. Like my candidate won, my candidate didn't. But in this civic care, what you're talking about is yes, that happens. And let's reconvene because we're still a community, we're still neighbors. This is something we're all doing together, whether your team, you know, quote unquote wins or loses. Are there any more stories or lessons from Dolly Madison that you think our listeners need to hear? I think there's probably plenty.

SPEAKER_01 15:18

I think one that's sort of interesting is how when we think about sort of like transgressive forms of power, there's a time when Henry Clay is he's in the legislature and he doesn't really like, he doesn't like James Madison. And he's like gonna come after James Madison for this like discussion on what they're gonna do in sort of like a foreign policy piece. And she realizes that like this is not an ally of my husband, but he cut she invites him to the house and they share snuff out of her snuff box, which is sort of like a transgressive thing. But when I talk about this with people in New York City, when I give like public lectures on it, I'm like, and we all know a good way to make friends is sharing drugs. Like if you look at like dancing culture or rave scene culture, it's like you might not be friends, but if you're willing to do this sort of like transgressive

Henry Clay And The Snuff Box

SPEAKER_01 16:03

things together, okay, then you're willing to be a weird sort of bridge builder or a necessary sort of bridge builder. And she has all these other little things that are not just like I dressed up and I had parties. It's like, and I saw that there were little inserts that I could do my little like political work in. And I and I think there's there's plenty to learn about her. And there's people who have written about her, and she's worth more of our study.

SPEAKER_00 16:25

I love that. Lindsay, thank you so much. I have like, again, I love doing these podcasts because I get all of these ideas and all of these, you know, thoughts for like extra research. And I think that my summer is going to be spent on first ladies because there's so much we there's so, you know, in this America 250, I do not want to discredit what our founders did, but now I want to understand, I think a little bit more of the civic care, the civic engagement that went in from women who were not in office during that time. So thank you so much for being on our podcast and for chatting with me about Dolly Madison, kind of the first influencer.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

Totally. I

Why First Ladies Still Matter

SPEAKER_01 17:12

I mean we can all fight for who first influencer is, but thank you so much for having me because I think the more people who care about this, the better.