Civics In A Year
What do you really know about American government, the Constitution, and your rights as a citizen?
Civics in a Year is a fast-paced podcast series that delivers essential civic knowledge in just 10 minutes per episode. Over the course of a year, we’ll explore 250 key questions—from the founding documents and branches of government to civil liberties, elections, and public participation.
Rooted in the Civic Literacy Curriculum from the Center for American Civics at Arizona State University, this series is a collaborative project supported by the School of Civic and Economic Thought and Leadership. Each episode is designed to spark curiosity, strengthen constitutional understanding, and encourage active citizenship.
Whether you're a student, educator, or lifelong learner, Civics in a Year will guide you through the building blocks of American democracy—one question at a time.
Civics In A Year
An Apple of Gold: Lincoln's Vision Shaped the Nation We Know Today
Abraham Lincoln viewed the Declaration of Independence as America's moral foundation and the Constitution as the means to achieve the Declaration's principles of liberty and equality for all. Dr. Paul Kreis explains Lincoln's understanding that the Constitution must be guided by the Declaration's self-evident truths, particularly regarding slavery and freedom.
• Lincoln saw the relationship between the Declaration and Constitution as the most important political question of his time
• The Constitution exists to serve the aims and ideals set forth in the Declaration
• Lincoln believed the federal government couldn't abolish slavery where it existed but could restrict its expansion
• The Gettysburg Address deliberately begins with "four score and seven years ago" to reference 1776 (Declaration) not 1787 (Constitution)
• Lincoln's "apple of gold" metaphor describes the Declaration as precious with the Constitution as its protective silver frame
• The statement "the picture was made for the apple, not the apple for the picture" captures Lincoln's view of the proper relationship
• Lincoln sought to harmonize enlightenment principles, constitutional elements, and biblical references in his understanding of America
• His approach dissatisfied both abolitionists (who wanted immediate action) and Southern leaders (who distrusted his intentions)
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Welcome back everybody. We have one of our favorites, dr Paul Kreis, back to talk to us about Abraham Lincoln and the Declaration. So, dr Kreis, thank you so much for coming back. Today's question is how did Abraham Lincoln understand the relationship between the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution?
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful question and it reveals a great deal about the meaning of the Declaration of Independence and the founding. On the one hand, it also reveals a great deal about Abraham Lincoln, who probably is still regarded as our greatest president. He certainly is very widely appreciated by people, by Americans and educators across different political philosophical views. So this question about the relationship between the Declaration and the Constitution, I think that Lincoln thought of it as the most important political question of his adult lifetime, the era that we think of as leading up to the Civil War. Because in Lincoln's view, the crucial political question about slavery that's tearing apart American politics, and especially the 1840s, clearly by the 1850s that question what to do about slavery really had to be answered by sorting out what the real purpose of America was or the fundamental principles of justice in America. And in his view, the answer had to be in the relationship between these two crucial documents, the Declaration of the Constitution. And his answer was that the Constitution, as important as it was, was not as important as the Declaration, both important. But the Constitution existed for the purpose of serving the aims and purposes and ideals in the Declaration of Independence, and we've talked about those in earlier episodes of Civics in a Year right, the laws of nature and nature's God as the fundamental aims of justice. The self-evident truths that all men are created equal that's of course the crucial one in relation to slavery. Equal, that's of course the crucial one in relation to slavery. Among these self-evident truths, that everyone, every human being, has an unalienable right to life, to liberty, to the pursuit of happiness, among other crucial rights. Okay, so again, as important as Lincoln thought the Constitution was and he's a lawyer he thought we must understand the Constitution as the means to achieve the ends or aims specified in the Declaration of Independence.
Speaker 2:Enormously contentious question of slavery in America had to be approached primarily, lincoln thought, through the truths in the Declaration of Independence and then, secondarily, it had to be addressed through the crucially important institutions and procedural principles in the Constitution, important institutions and procedural principles in the Constitution. And that meant for Lincoln that in the Constitution, of course, is government by consent to the governed, which is a principle in the Declaration. But through these complicated constitutional means, and as complicated as the Constitution is, it still gives its real weight to majority rule, majority opinion, majority opinion has sort of been complicated in the Constitution by oh, you know, the Senate is not exactly a democratic institution and the federal courts are not exactly a democratic institution, et cetera, et cetera. But it still gives weight over time to majority opinion. No-transcript saying he's going to comply with the Constitution. But the crucial question then is well, how to interpret it, how to interpret the Constitution in relation to the question of slavery. And again, his insight is, and his very public argument is the Constitution must be interpreted according to the overr Lincoln argued.
Speaker 2:The federal government had no power to abolish slavery where it currently existed in the 1850s, in 1860,. Once he's elected in November as president, that election doesn't mean he now is king and he has power to just do whatever he wants to do about slavery. The Constitution it's just clear there are too many clauses in the Constitution that protect slavery, the legal status of slavery where it exists, but, on the other hand, according to this principle that the Declaration should be guiding the interpretation of the Constitution, according to that principle, the federal government could restrict the expansion of slavery into territories and could control. The federal government could control and regulate slavery anywhere it was the government, the territories, not the states being the sovereign government. Because, in fact, not only could it, it should regulate slavery or restrict the expansion of slavery in this way, because this is what the Declaration of Independence requires. The moral principles, the self-evident truths about justice and rights in the Declaration of Independence require the view that slavery is wrong, and so the extent that the federal government could restrict it or mitigate it, the federal government must, according to the principle of the Declaration. So this complicated view that Lincoln holds makes a lot of people unhappy. On the one hand, the abolitionists against slavery are not happy that once he's elected president, he's not just going to move to try to abolish slavery everywhere. On the other hand, the leaders in the southern states are very threatened by Lincoln's election because they don't believe he's telling the truth. They believe that he's an abolitionist, even though he's saying look, I'm going to stick to the Constitution as much as I'm opposed morally to slavery on the grounds of the Declaration of Independence, away from that particular question of slavery and of Lincoln, lincoln's affirming something that makes common sense.
Speaker 2:If you just read the preamble to the Constitution, what's the relationship between the Declaration and the Constitution? Well, the Constitution doesn't explicitly quote the Declaration of Independence, but the preamble to the Constitution is the place we look to to answer the question why this Constitution? Because that's what it says we, the people if you get your copy, your pocket Constitution, and get the preamble to the Constitution, we, the people of the United States, in order to do the following things, and then, at the end of that long sentence of the preamble, we thereby do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America. Well, what are the things, aims, purposes the Constitution is meant to achieve? Well, establish a more perfect union, establish justice, capital J and this is the one I think is also directly coming from the Declaration of Independence to secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.
Speaker 2:And it's capital B blessings and capital L liberty. So, between justice, capital J and blessings of liberty, capitalized. That's the Declaration of Independence, those are the principles of the Declaration. That's why we, the people, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of Independence. Those are the principles of the Declaration of Independence. That's why we, the people, do ordain and establish this Constitution of the United States of America.
Speaker 1:So, looking at Lincoln's Gettysburg Address because I think that that is one of the more famous speeches that our viewers, students, would know is this kind of why he starts the Gettysburg Address with the whole four score and seven years ago.
Speaker 2:I think that's exactly why, if you do the math from 1863, november of 1863, standing on that battlefield in Pennsylvania, 87 years earlier, four score and seven years earlier is 1776. 87 years earlier, four score and seven years earlier is 1776. So when he says four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent a new nation, right, that date is not 1787, the Constitution and it's not, you know, 1620, the Mayfair Compact or something like that. Right 87 years ago, our fathers brought forth in this continent a new nation, conceived in liberty, and dedicated the proposition. What, oh? That all men are created equal. Ok, that's why this battle was fought. That's why this war is being fought. And then in the text of the Gettysburg Address, he calls for a new birth of freedom. These men who fought here have dedicated and consecrated this battlefield more than any of our words could ever do. What can we do now? We have to be committed to the new birth of freedom that their struggle has made possible. That means a new commitment to the principles of 1776. What does that mean? All men are created equal and the broader principles of the Declaration.
Speaker 2:Now, there is a point there that and I'll talk about this a little further Lincoln's views of the Declaration of the Constitution. It's not accidental. He uses a biblical phrase so this is from Psalm 90, to count the lives of men in terms of score of years 20 years and then more particular years, so to say four score and seven years ago. Scholars have documented this quite a lot. To say four score and seven years ago. Scholars have documented this quite a lot. He's trying to bring in the Christian biblical tradition which he hopes might be unifying as well as giving a deeper foundation. Now the Declaration again itself refers to the laws of nature and nature's God and has three other references to a divinity, but it doesn't use explicitly say Christian or Jewish and Christian language. This is from the Old Testament, as the Christians would say, or from the Hebrew Bible, psalm 90. So again it's another signal that of course he's fighting for the Union, right the war. Here he is at Gettysburg 1863. Of course the war is for the Union and for the Constitution, but it's for the why behind the Union and the Constitution. So he's trying to pull it all together and say that the new birth has to be informing the Constitution, including amendments to the Constitution which he's already thinking about, to abolish slavery. Our Constitution, our laws, our political culture has to more tightly comply with the Declaration and its principles than it has in these first 87 years. Source we have about this relationship, which informs why in 1863 at Gettysburg, would he start with four score and seven years ago, pointing to 1776? Why would he talk about conceived in liberty that's what America means in 1776. Why, dedicated to the proposition a phrase from the declaration that all men are created equal In 1859, lincoln has become nationally famous by then because of what are called the Lincoln-Douglas debates.
Speaker 2:He challenges a very prominent Democratic senator from Illinois Lincoln's from Illinois for the Senate seat from Illinois in the 1858 election. Long shot effort by Lincoln because Senator Stephen Douglas is one of the most famous politicians in America and one of the leaders of the Democratic Party and he's going to be the Democratic Party nominee in 1860 for the presidency. Lincoln runs against him, challenges him to debates. Lincoln becomes famous in what are called the Lincoln-Douglas debates. Now, lincoln loses. In the end the state legislature chooses senators. Lincoln loses but it makes him famous, and especially among this new party, the Republicans, the Republican Party.
Speaker 2:So Republicans in Boston, massachusetts invite Lincoln in 1869 to a celebration of Thomas Jefferson's birthday. So you can see what the Republican Party is doing up in Boston. Right, they want to emphasize the Declaration and Jefferson and the Declaration. So they invite Lincoln. Lincoln says I regret that I cannot attend, but he writes a letter and the letter is about the relationship between the Declaration and the Constitution. And he says that we now, as Republicans, could be very proud that we stand for Thomas Jefferson's principles. And isn't it a shame that the Democratic Party, which was founded by Thomas Jefferson, no longer really holds the Thomas Jefferson's principles in the Declaration of Independence? It's kind of mocking them, right.
Speaker 2:And then he gives quotations from very Southern leaders who in the previous decade or more had mocked the Declaration of Independence. Southern, you know, statements that the Declaration of Independence statement about all men being created equal. That's a self-evident lie. Or there are glittering generalities in the Declaration of Independence like who cares, you know? So he says, but we Republicans, we believe in it.
Speaker 2:And so this is the final paragraph of this letter he writes, you can find it. It's an 1859 letter to Henry Pierce or Purse. They would pronounce it in New England and others. This is the final paragraph of Lincoln's letter. All honor to Jefferson, to the man who, in the concrete pressure of a struggle for national independence by a single people, introduced into a merely revolutionary document an abstract truth applicable to all men and all times, so as to embalm it there he means, preserve it there that today and in all coming days it shall be a rebuke and a stumbling block to the very harbingers of reappearing tyranny and oppression. So this is his praise to Jefferson, saying self-evident truths all men created equal life's liberty pursued happens. So this is 1859. He's got it on his mind very intensely that the Declaration is the guiding principle for interpreting the Constitution and the conduct of the federal government.
Speaker 1:So I know that there's also a writing by Lincoln where he compares the Declaration and the Constitution to gold and silver specific items. Why does he do that? Can you talk a little bit about that?
Speaker 2:Yes, this is another extraordinary document from Lincoln. So obviously the Gettysburg Address is very public documents 1863. He's focused on the Declaration and a rebirth of freedom, a rebirth of American political culture according to the principles of the Declaration. And now we've just seen, in 1859, he's very much got the Declaration on his mind and he'd been arguing about the Declaration for well over a decade in the 1850s. This is the key to understanding the slavery controversy.
Speaker 2:But we also know historians know of what's called a fragment. It's a note to himself that Lincoln writes and scholars date it to either late 1860 or early 1861. So they dated to the period when he's been elected president. But back at then there's a very long, almost six month period, because inaugural ceremonies for a presidency were in March of the of the following year, not in January as we have them now. So it's sometime between November 1860 when he's elected and when he's inaugurated in March.
Speaker 2:And it's the fragment on the Declaration of the Constitution and the crucial word he uses is apple of gold. So you could find it that way. And it's again an occasion where he invokes a passage from scripture from the Old Testament. This is from Proverbs 25. And this is a proverb said to be from. These are proverbs from King Solomon, said to be this very wise, judicious king, and it's using the phrase from the Proverbs a word fitly spoken is like an apple of gold in a frame of silver, and Lincoln compares the Declaration of the Constitution to these precious items. The Declaration is the apple of gold and the frame of silver around the apple of gold to adorn it and protect it is the Constitution. So he is coming. You know there's talk of civil war in the air and he's trying to clarify his thinking. He never publishes these thoughts himself. You can see how this informs the Gettysburg Address and so much of what he does from his first inaugural address forward. Right, so I'm just going to read it.
Speaker 2:This is a long reading from Lincoln, but it's worth every word. All this and he means america, all this is not the result of accident. It has a philosophical cause. Without the constitution and the union, we, america, could not have attained the result. But even these are not the primary cause of our great prosperity. There's something back of these, entwining itself more closely about the human heart. That something is the principle of liberty to all, the principle that clears the path for all, gives hope to all and, by consequence, enterprise and industry to all. The expression of that principle in our Declaration of Independence was most happy and fortunate. Without this, as well as with it, we could have declared independence of Great Britain. But without it we could not, I think, have secured our free government and our consequent prosperity and our consequent prosperity. No oppressed people will fight and endure, as our fathers did, without the promise of something better than a mere change of masters.
Speaker 2:The assertion of that principle at that time was the word fitly spoken. And here he puts it in quotation marks. He's quoting the Proverbs. Which has proved an apple of gold. He quotes it to us the union and the constitution are the picture of silver, the frame of silver subsequently framed around it. And here's the crucial conclusion the picture was made not to conceal or destroy the apple, but to adorn and preserve it. The picture was made for the apple, not the apple for the picture. So let us act that neither the picture or apple shall ever be blurred or bruised or broken. That we may so act. We must study and understand the points of danger. So there's a huge amount here.
Speaker 2:But again the biblical reference. There's something deeper, and this is, you know, by his second inaugural. There's no reference. The war is basically won by 1865. He's won re-election. There's no reference to the Declaration of the Constitution in the Second Argo. It's all biblical. So for him these pieces all fit together the Enlightenment principles of individual natural rights, the common law constitutional element, the biblical elements, they all fit together.
Speaker 2:So there's that part. And then there's the clear message. I was mentioning this earlier. The Constitution is for the Declaration and that means the Declaration must guide our understanding of how to interpret and implement the Constitution. And this is what the Southern leaders or the pro-slavery leaders and speakers in America are getting wrong. On the other hand, notice he says we must adorn and preserve both the frame of silver and the apple of gold, both the Constitution and the Declaration. So that's the argument against the abolitionists. I can't just declare myself king and be lawless and abolish slavery, because the Constitution right now doesn't let me do that. Abolish slavery, because the Constitution right now doesn't let me do that. But it's just an extraordinary private document, which then becomes public, of his understanding of the philosophical meaning of America, of our political project, and then the guiding principles from the Declaration, the importance and the guiding principles of the Constitution and this should be this should. This sets the terms of argument, reasonable disagreement and then trying to figure out the right path forward.
Speaker 1:Dr Freese, it's so interesting to look at Lincoln's you know writings that were public and then again writings that weren't meant to be public but help us understand his thinking, especially as it relates to the Declaration and especially as we are celebrating America 250, and looking at the Declaration wasn't just important in 1776. It continued to be important throughout American history, which again in further episodes we will explore. Thank you so much for your expertise. It's greatly appreciated.
Speaker 2:Thank you so much, Liz.
